Supreme Court Rulings
Clarifications to the Rules will be posted here.
Direct Rules questions to: e-mail the Court.
30 April 2008
On the subject of noodles .... a very long question!
I would like clarification on a few important items:
1) Noodles being counted as in the river – According to a 20 February 2008 Supreme Court ruling, "Noodles are scored if more than half the noodle is within the vertical projection of the river's outer bounds." However, I was quite disheartened when I heard that noodles that are still touching the noodle tower were not being counted, even when "more than half the noodle is within the vertical projection of the river's outer bounds." Particularly, I am referring to the bottom level noodle that is closest to the center of the tower that can fall over with "more than half the noodle within the vertical projection of the river's outer bounds." As you can see, the only statement about scoring noodles that are in the river is "Noodles are scored if more than half the noodle is within the vertical projection of the river's outer bounds." Due to the succinctness on this ruling, it would appear to a reasonable 3rd party that the above quoted statement is the only parameter that is taken into account when scoring noodles that are in the river. Had the court intended for there to be an exception to the above rule, they should have said 'Noodles must be removed from the noodle tower before they can be counted as in the river,' or 'Noodles that are touching the noodle tower will not be counted as being in the river.' However, such statements do not exist. Taking this into account, I strongly urge the Court to stick by the ruling that they made that cold February night and to count all noodles with "more than half the noodle within the vertical projection of the river's outer bounds," regardless of whether or not the noodle is still touching the noodle tower. If the Court will not count said noodles, then they should put, in writing, a change to the ruling that reads something like 'Noodles that are touching the noodle tower will not be counted as being in the river.' I know that the argument exists that TA's have already scored robots without counting noodles that are touching the tower, however there is no reason why these noodles cannot count for the real competition.
2) Noodles being counted as removed from the noodle forest – I heard by word of mouth that noodles will not be counted as removed if they are touching noodles that are still in the 'forest,' but not touching the noodle tower (wood) (i.e. say the top noodle tips over on top of the third level noodles, but is suspended from the wood of the noodle tower, I heard that this noodle would not be counted as removed). For this possible rule I would like to point out a 17 February 2008 ruling that read as follows – "In order for your points to count for noodles removed, No part of your noodle can touch any part of the noodle tower, except for the lower, vertical wall on the floor. The noodles will be counted even if they are in the air, or held by a robot at the end of regulation, but the noodles must be in the field of play." In this case, the author of the response clearly says "noodle tower" rather than "noodle forest (which reasonably could mean tower and noodles)," or "noodle tower and noodles still in the tower." To a reasonable third party, the term "noodle tower" would mean the wooden structure holding noodles up. While this may have just been a slip up in the wording, I do not see it as being moral to, a week before the competition, add that noodles cannot be touching other noodles that are in the noodle tower. As such, I strongly recommend that noodles that do not touch "any part of the noodle tower," but do touch other noodles, are counted as being removed, as the existing rule read.
3) Why you should consider the above – In the original rules, it says that rules will be clarified to preserve the spirit of the competition. As intelligent students, it is clear that we will pick apart any set of rules and try to find loopholes that the authors neglected to address. Also, if we find a loophole and there is a clarification on it, we should be expected to be scored based on the actual words in the clarification. With this students spend 100's of hours (Some of us were here for spring break, so 100's of hours is accurate) creating a design that meets the specifications that the actual rules dictate. If then said rules are changed a week before the competition, it really demoralizes and frustrates said students, and is not, in my opinion, in the 'spirit of the contest.' Additionally, there exists the argument that 'all that matters is that everyone is scored the same way.' However, as noted, if students designed their robots strictly to the actual words in the clarifications, and then are scored on a modified set of rules, then these students are penalized for their ability to analyze a problem and think outside of the box. Rather, if the above rulings are allowed (as suggested), then no one is penalized and students are rewarded for thoroughly reading the rules and observing and playing with the table to study how different elements of the table actually function (I.e. I actually played with the table and noticed that noodles can easily tip over such that more than 50% of them are in the river, and that noodles can be pulled such that they do not touch the noodle tower, so I made my design to accomplish these tasks). Whatever the court decides, rulings that are announced in lab should be posted on the web for those not in attendance. I hope that someone actually reads all of this, and I thank that person for their time,
Answer:
I appreciate you bringing this to the court officially, and it helps to have your claims in writing for everyone. I will try to address the same points you bring up.
1.) In the original rules placed online, it states in the scoring section:
"Placing the felled Noodles within the River's environs to build a dam. If more
than half a Noodle crosses the River boundaries it counts as being in the River."
Thus according to the wording, the noodles must be felled from the forest (synonymous with being removed for points).
Now with the supreme court ruling of feb 20 including the query-
Q: If the noodle forest logs are on our robot, and we drive our robot into the river at the end of the round, do those logs count toward our score?
A: Noodles are scored if more than half the noodle is within the vertical projection of the river's outer bounds.
This ruling could have been too succint, but I feel like it answered the context of the question sufficiently. The court rulings are not meant to restrict creativity in the class by being too specific or address points which were not explicitly brought up, and to ensure that we have a smooth running competition. The response to a question is not meant to negate certain rules that call for prerequisites or parameters that may appear previously in court rulings or the original rules.
For this ruling, I would vote to stand by the original interpretation of the rules being implemented in seeding currently, which does not count a noodle that hasn't been removed from the forest.
And onto the second point:
#2) As seeding goes on, I am having second thoughts about this aspect of the scoring as well. For one, there is always ambiguity if the "noodle forest" also includes tipped noodles. From what I saw in seeding today, there are cases where a vertical stack 3 noodles tall form a the end of regulation, and sometimes even with the robot sandwiched in between. This case alone forms an ambiguity on several levels using the current interpretation of the rules. Currently, after watching 2 hours of seeding today, I am strongly inclined to agree with Kevin Plumer to take a loose interpretation of the noodle tower ruling, for the student's sake, as well as for further resolving ambiguities during scoring.
As such, I would like to propose the that the new ruling be, with the approval of Nevan and Alex:
"In order for noodles to be counted as removed from the forest, NO part of the noodle can be touching the wooden platform except for the front face of the vertical wall which rests directly on the floor. Noodles outside the field of play at regulation will not be counted, unless the robot, beyond any reasonable doubt, has control of the noodle."
#3) I regret that questions come up persistently about this because there will always be special cases if the rules are too specific, which they might currently be in some cases. From an organizer's side, it was very hard to address these concerns specifically if there are not robots actually trying this out on the table and driving, getting "down and dirty' with the table, if you will. If you notice on the supreme court page on the site, we have posted the rulings as they come. As a general trend, it seems like the class was pretty content with rules throughout April and most of March. Since many MCM's and modules do not actually start to be used in a competition like scenario until Mid April, the lag on clarifying these rules takes some time, trial and error, and the input of students. I assure you that much time and thought has been put into solving many of the issues of the competition this year. Recall from lecture our mini case study of the magnetic door for the starting box, and sometimes the most simple looking problems have the deepest solutions.
I am sure you have had similar experiences in building your robot.
I think that if these two rulings are the best solution for the class at this point.
I appreciate your concerns and approach for resolving these issues.
Much shorter questions:
24 March 2008
Q: What if I put the balls in a canister? Kind of like the tennis ball 3-pack canisters. I'm not trying to nitpick, but I wanted to shoot out this canister from my ball funnel, so that the components holding the on-board balls don't get in the way of the balls falling from the top of the starting box as they cascade down.
A: From the precedent of previous years, I will say that scoring with a detachable projectile to score are allowed. However, if you shoot your projectile canister and it misses, then you will be disqualified because you have not scored before your robot came apart. Please design accordingly.
Q: We are provided with a threaded shaft, but it is very small and I would have to have it turn 20 times to move an inch. I was told that were are allowed to buy fasteners and, while a threaded shaft is not a fastener per say, I'm hoping to buy another one to optimize my design. I am using it for power transmission and it has been recommended that I not try to make one myself.
A:That is fine with the court. Please get approval from your TA as well by showing the appropriate calculations and design.
Q: I guess my email was lost, but I was wondering if it's legal to score and shoot out a projectile at the same time? I wanted to launch my 5 on-board balls into the hole in the starting box.
A: It is acceptable to shoot your balls without scoring. The 5 initial balls do not count as part of your robot.
Q: Since we are allowed to push our opponents noodles out of the river, if our opponent were to design a contraption to hold the noodles over the river are we allowed to attempt to push their machine out or the river? Can we attempt to knock the noodles out of their machine? Also if by accident while you were trying to dislodge a noodle from their grasp a particularly fragile (but critical) component on their arm were to break would your robot be disqualified or would it be deemed accidental? I mean if the arm of one robot were to hit the other's while trying to dislodge a noodle would that robot be disqualified or would it be considered accidental damage? Thank You!
A: Robots pushing together is fine, as long as it is done in a way that purposely does not try to harm the other robot.
You can knock noodles out of their machine, but your primary strategy should be focused on how you will score, and not only how to minimize what the opponent can score.
If during contact, one of the robots break, the judges will decide if it was bad design or unsportsmanlike behavior that caused the part to break.
Please read the Supreme court rulings for similar questions that have
already been answered.
Q: A ruling by the court said no elastomers are to be pre-stretched before competition. Does this apply to springs? Can we have compression springs that are compressed in the start box?
A: In the rules it states that springs do not count as elastomers, thus they can be prestretched at the start of competition.
17 March 2008
Q: Is a log in the river counted as both a log felled and a log in the river when calculating the multiplying effect?
A: Yes, your noodle will be scored as removed from the forest AND in the river in this situation.
14 March 2008
Q: There's a piece of foam in our blue toolkit boxes. Can we use them to cushion anything?
A: Court has already made a ruling disallowing foam because it can get messy. if you would like a cushion, i can provide you with rubber stoppers from the stockroom.
10 March 2008
Q: To score a ball that you start with on your robot, I presume it must fully leave the box and then re-enter. Would such a ball be considered to have left the box once it has entirely exited the starting dimensions (i.e. the vertical extension of the 16x16" area defined by the inner surface of the starting box walls)?
A: Yes, the ball has left the box once it fully removes itself from the volume of the starting box.
Q: Can we use foam on our car? I want to fill in some of the spaces but don't want the extra weight so foam would be useful.
A: Foam gets messy, and this usage crosses the line of non functional if it is used as a space filler, for keeping balls away from casters, for example.
Q: You said on the rulings that a robot must score before dis-attaching itself from a module. If a robot was tethered to this module in some fashion, does this count as attachment?
A: Yes, this counts as attached.
Q: The rules say that our robots must fit entirely in the box. Does this mean that no part of our part can break the vertical planes surrounding the box? Or can parts of our bot stick out of the windows?
A: No part can stick out of the windows before the time starts.
Q: Regarding storing energy in elastomers, does this mean that none of the rubber bands we use on our robot can be stretched in any way at the start? Even if they're used for structural support and not any scoring components?
A: Yes, no rubber band can be prestretched before the competition start. The only allowable exception here is to secure your control box or battery, since that has been allowed in previous years.
Q: Regarding the 15 February judgment, "the robot and balls may exit through any part of the starting box." To clarify, does this mean that we could extend the 5 balls that start on our machine through the one of the scoring holes and have them reenter through the same (or the other) scoring hole WHILE our robot is still inside the starting box, and have those balls count as part of our score? And if that's allowed, would we then be allowed to detach part of our robot before leaving the starting box (since technically we'll have scored already)?
A: Yes, that would be allowed.
3 March 2008
Q: Can any part of my robot stay within the starting box after I drive out? Say if I dropped something in the box and I drove out without it, and without being tethered to it.
A: Yes, but you have to score first before your robot can come apart. Leaving something in the box will not violate the robot has to leave in 10 seconds rule.
30 February 2008
Q: If your opponent decides to assault your robot (push against it, blocking its path, pin it against a wall, etc…) can you fight back against your opponent (i.e. tipping his robot over so you can go on with your mission).
A #1: Yes, you are allowed to push back. You are not allowed to deliberately
flip, or damage your opponent. If your opponents robot falls apart
because of bad manufacturing/assembly, it is at the judges discretion
to determine fault.
A #2: Also, if my robot has angled skirts and some (censored) charges me and drives up
my skirt and flips themselves over, TFD! :) they lose, hahahahah.
A #3: if I was pinned and started hitting all my robot's buttons and one just "happened" to activate my uber powerful scoop which might just have a flipping effect, well too bad.
Q: Can you push your opponent’s noodles out of the river? Say that your opponent spent 30 seconds of hard-worked time carefully guiding his noodles into the river, and you spend 2 seconds driving through the river and pushing all of his noodles out of it. This seems like a very unfair tactic, that should be banned because it is simply too easy to do. It essentially makes scoring with noodles in the river impossible, because anyone’s last 5 seconds of driving time can be used to drive through the river and screw over their opponent.
A #1: Yes you can push your opponents noodles out of the river. It would be unfortunate if the opponent pushes ones noodles out of the river, but what is even more unfortunate would be one whole semester wasted on bad strategizing, but thanks for your concern of your opponent.
A #2: Wellll if I had a whole bunch of noodles in the river...and someone tried then to attack my noodles, I would block their machine with mine....
Q: I faintly remember hearing that your robot is allowed to start with 5 food pellet balls placed somewhere on it at the start of the competition. But I can't find that anywhere int he rules. If you are allowed 5 food pellet balls at the start of the competition is that taken from the food pellet balls on the top of the starting box (leaving 36 total food pellet balls) or are the 5 food pellet balls in addition to the 36 on top of the starting box (leaving 41 total food pellet balls)?
A: The ball count is 36 on top of starting box, and you have the option of loading 5 balls into your robot to start. the 5 balls are not subtracted from the ones on top of the box. The rule is in the scoring section, 4th bullet
29 February 2008
Q: "Failure to exit the [Starting] Box within 10 seconds will constitute a defeat." Assuming I score before exiting the Starting Box (using the 5 food balls that can start on my robot), in accordance with Rules and Regulations 4-e. Would exiting the Starting Box without my entire robot (leaving a portion behind) constitute defeat? (i.e.- If I score, drop an arm inside the box, and exit the starting box, will I be in violation of 2-a?)
A: No, that is fine.
27 February 2008
Q: The February 13th ruling update says that "You are allowed to touch the opponent's beaver as you please." Just for clarification, does this mean that you can only touch, or are you allowed to drive off with the opponent's beaver? Something like holding that more important beaver hostage so that the opponent cannot take advantage of the higher multiplier achieved with 2^n.
A: You may steal food or play with their noodles, but beaver-napping is not allowed.
26 February 2008
Q: Is it allowed to use a forklift or some other mechanism to raise the hinged ramp that's connected to the starting box beneath the scoring slots, if it causes no harm to the game table?
A: Yes that is fine.
Q: Can we bring the beavers still under the cones to the lodge?
A: Yes that is fine. Beavers do not have to be removed from under the cones in order to be scored.
Q: I recall hearing in lecture that food balls may be scored by being placed in the lodge, and would be equivalent to food balls place in the starting box. As this does not appear in the original rules document, I am not sure if this is true. Please clarify.
A: No, only beavers count in the lodge.
Q: Is it possible for us to use solenoids on our robots, considering we can control them along with the 4 motors using only the 4 channels?
A: Ssolenoids are an electromechanical device, thus cannot be added to the kit.
20 February 2008
Q: Velcro?
A: Velcro is fine, but it is not supplied. We recommend the low-strength variety. If beaver fur comes off in clumps this will constitute table damage. Normal wear & tear of beavers, noodles, etc. is acceptable.
Q:Since the beaver must not stay in the lodge to score I am wondering what constitutes scoring with it precisely. For example if I grasp the baby, say with a claw and hold it an inch above the platform, but clearly within the platforms vertical projection of itself, and then move it out will that score? Another example if I touch the platform with the beaver but do not release it and then move it out of the platform have I scored?
A: Scoring with a beaver: Beavers must be above the plane of the lodge at the end of the round to be scored. Opponents beavers placed on the lodge may not be removed.
Q: If the noodle forest logs are on our robot, and we drive our robot into the river at the end of the round, do those logs count toward our score?
A: Noodles are scored if more than half the noodle is within the vertical projection of the river's outer bounds.
Q: If noodles are deposited in the beaver lodge, do they count as being in the river? Do they count if they are under the lodge?
A: Yes & yes.
Q: Can we reconfigure our robots before a round to match the side of the table we are on as long as the reconfiguration doesn't delay the start of the match?
A: Yes.
Q: I feel like it was mentioned once that there are points received for simply lifting the cones to reveal the beavers? From the scoring algorithm, I only see points given when a beaver is placed in the lodge. Could you clarify this for me?
A: Beavers are only scored for reaching the lodge. We have no record of any other position.
Q: Can we shoot tethered projectiles, ie a weighted lasso out of a spring cannon?
A: If you entangle your opponent in any way with the teher, you are immediately disqualified, the Naked Phone Booth rule will be strictly enforced
17 February 2008
Q: What exactly counts as removing a noodle from the forest for points?
A: In order for your points to count for noodles removed, No part of your noodle can touch any part of the noodle tower, except for the lower, vertical wall on the floor. The noodles will be counted even if they are in the air, or held by a robot at the end of regulation, but the noodles must be in the field of play.
Q: I was reading through the rules and I was wondering whether if the same point values for M apply for Q or does getting a level 1 noodle and a level 2 noodle have the same Q value.
A: The point values for M only apply to noodles taken off the river.
Every noodle is worth the same (1 pt for O and Q) in the river and in the starting box.
Q: If at the end of the game a robot is in the river and is holding one or more noodles, do those noodles count as being in the river? If at the end of the game a baby beaver is touching the beaver lodge but is also being held by a robot, does it count as being in the beaver lodge?
A: Yes, Your Robot can be touching the noodles and the beavers and still be counted at the end of regulation.
15 February 2008
Q: Do the five balls that start on your machine have to exit via the doors? Or could they, via some arm or mechanism, exit through the round hole/slot and then reenter through the same slot? Likewise can portions of your robot exit the starting box through the scoring holes once the timer has started?
A: The robot and balls may exit through any part of the starting box.
Q: Once the baby beavers are placed on top of the lodge can your robot (or a portion of it) remain attached to them? (i.e.: a detachable arm, or placing your robot on top of the lodge with the beavers on board)
A: Yes, that is fine.
Q: Also I was imagining a type of device that used Velcro to assist in picking up the baby beavers. Would the use of Velcro strips be allowed? Something like Velcro strips from McMaster-Carr (ex: part 9273K163) would be more than adequate.
A: We will get back to you soon about the use of velcro.
Q: Finally, are the number of welding rods available for our use limited? The checklist says 4 under the quantity column, however it also says provided as needed. If we needed more than 4 would they be provided?
A: You are limited to four welding rods for structural use, which you must request for, as needed.
Q: What constitutes damage to the Noodles? If I use a gripper with serrated edges to grab the noodles and it happens to slide over the noodle visible scratching it but not deeply puncturing it, would that count as damage?
A: Damage from puncturing (from a spear or short spike foe example) will not be tolerated. Frictional marks however are fine as long as they do not "slice" or put a cut through the noodle.
Q: Can the trees be altered at all? That is, can they be attached to an adhesive or poked with small spikes? I should think that, seeing as trees are very robust, that this would be appropriate...
A: The noodles cannot be poked, protruded, or punctured through the foam. Using adhesive on the table is not allowed.
Q: Can duct tape be used?
A: Tape is fine for non-structural parts of your robot.
Q: Can I spear noodles? I don't think spearing them will actually damage them at all plus it would be really cool.
A: I would not recommend spearing noodles. there are two means of disqualification that such a mechanism could potentially fall under: Destruction of the table, and Naked Phone Booth Rule which are both strictly enforced.
Q: Is the number of motors limited to the four given in the kit, or is the number of motors limited to the channels with which they are controlled? In other words, if you can control 5 motors with 4
channels, can you use 5 motors, or are you limited to the 4 in the kit?
A: You are restricted to using the four motors that are given. Controlling two motors from one channel is allowed as long as you properly design for it with the appropriate documentation.
Q: I understand that regarding the logs, the scoring is such that it depends on what logs are left in the river at the end of the match (i.e. if a log is laid in the river and is subsequently pushed out by the opponent, it doesn't count). Does the same ruling apply to beavers in the beaver lodge? Can you push out your opponent's beaver after it has been placed in the lodge, or is there a no-baby-beaver-harassment policy?
A: The logs are scored according to what is remaining in the river at the end of the match, so you are allowed to push you opponent's logs out of the river. The beavers will be counted once they arrive on the platform, and if they are knocked off, that beaver will still be counted. There is no defined consequence to removing your opponent's beavers from the platform at this time.
13 February 2008
Q: What is the purpose of the plywood square in the corner that hovers 6 > inches above the beaver lodge (as shown in the solidworks assembly)? Do the beavers need to be on top of/ under it?
A: The platform is the Beaver lodge. The beaver babies must be placed on top of the lodge(plywood platform) to score the exponential multiplier. The platform is on top of the table walls, which are hidden in the solidworks picture to show the details of the table.
Sorry for the confusion.
Q: I am not really understanding the part about the beavers. Can we steal our opponents beavers and score with them? And can we steal them just to be mean?
A: Each side has three beavers, two of yours, as well as one of the opponents. Likewise, on the other side of the river, there are two of your opponent's beavers, as well as your third beaver. your third beaver on the other side is worth more points. The beavers are under the cones, and the cones and beavers will be color coded for each side.
You are allowed to touch the opponent's beaver as you please, however, the beavers will be scored based on which ones make it on top of the beaver lodge, regardless of how they got there, meaning, if you place your opponent's beaver onto the lodge, the points will count for them.
Q: Net and entanglement devices are prohibited, but would you consider a lasso (or a more precise mechanical equivalent) to be such a device? This is, of course, assuming the purpose of the lasso is not to entangle the opponent, but to fell timber or pull cones, etc.
A: Lassos are permitted, but if they entangle you are @##!
Q: In the rules, it states that "opponent's balls can be absconded with." After looking up the definition of 'abscond', I still have a question about the rule. Can we can score opponent's balls in our own starting box for points, or just steal/abscond them?
A: You are allowed to hide and/or score with your opponent's food balls into you own starting box. Please keep in mind that you must cross the river legally per the rules.
Q: What constitutes 'crossing the river'? i.e. just breaking the plane of the far side of the river or touching the floor on the other side?
A: This year "crossing the river" will be defined as breaking the plane of the vertical projection of the river, on the other side. The river is a neutral zone, so both robots may occupy it without scoring first.
12 February 2008
Q: Can a machine puncture the top platform of the starting box to allow the food balls to fall into the starting box?
A: Your robot cannot puncture anything on the table including the starting box as that would fall under destruction of the table.
11 February 2008
Q: I am confused about the "entanglement" mentioned in 4. e. More specifically if I place my robot, not a tether in front of the opponent's robot and prevent it from moving, as has been done in previous 2.007 contests, will I be disqualified ?
A: Entanglement only refers to uncontrolled parts of your robot that wrap around the opponent, either intentionally or unintentionally. You will not be disqualified if you un destructively place your robot in front of your opponent, but you must score first before crossing the river. The purpose of this class is to design a robot considering all the possible strategies you can use, as well as must face with your opponent. Please keep that in consideration when designing and building your robot.
